Thrive In Construction with Darren Evans

Ep. 91 Designing Spaces for Learning | Kevin Higgs on Safety, Purpose & Net Zero

• Darren Evans

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How do you design buildings where safety, sustainability, and education all come together?

In this episode of the Thrive in Construction Podcast, Darren Evans talks with Kevin Higgs, Development Director at Happy Days Nurseries, about creating early-years environments that prioritise safety, learning, and sustainability.

After a career in property and retail development—including nearly a decade at Tesco—Kevin joined Happy Days Nurseries to help shape spaces that support both children’s growth and environmental responsibility. From designing safe, nurturing spaces to embedding sustainability in every project, Kevin shares what it takes to build for purpose rather than profit.

Key Highlights
• From Retail to Early Years – Why Kevin left corporate development to work in education, and how purpose reshaped his career.
• Safety & Responsibility – How safeguarding and building compliance underpin every decision when designing nurseries for young children.
• Designing for Education, Not Efficiency – Balancing open, flexible learning spaces with the technical challenges of heating, cooling, and sustainability.
• Human-Centred Design – Why architects and contractors must see buildings through a child’s eyes—every corner, height, and transition matters.
• Sustainability in Practice – From “last-person-out” switches to all-electric systems and BMS controls, how small details make a big difference.
• Building Relationships – What makes great partnerships between clients, developers, and contractors—and why shared values matter as much as capability.
• Purpose & Impact – How Happy Days uses its buildings and curriculum to teach sustainability, connect generations, and shape lifelong habits.


This episode is essential for architects, developers, sustainability professionals, and anyone designing for people, not just profit. Kevin’s insights reveal how thoughtful property decisions can create healthier, safer, and more sustainable communities.

If you want to see our other insightful podcasts, click here:https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOHI_yaqB2U8KWbsfJDPCoYEfOh-TTnip

Find us on:
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0dDkxLWZ25nT0krYWaTiIT
Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thrive-in-construction-with-darren-evans/id1726973152
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTrzqei7gttB8WB5wM6hUpw
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/showcase/thrive-in-construction-podcast/
Our Website: https://darren-evans.co.uk/


Links:
Kevin's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevin-higgs-30119590/
Happy Days Nurseries LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/happy-days-nurseries-south-west-ltd/posts/?feedView=all
Happy Days Nurseries Website: https://happydaysnurseries.com/

#Sustainability #ConstructionPodcast #ThriveInConstruction #EarlyYearsEducation #HappyDaysNurseries #BuildingDesign #NetZero #HealthyBuildings #PropertyDevelopment #BuiltEnvironment #SafetyFirst

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Darren Evans:

So um we have worked with yourselves, it feels like for a number of years, and I don't know if that's just a um a made-up thing in my mind, but I think Happy Days has has been at least banded around my organization for for a couple of years.

Kevin Higgs:

Yes, I it's certainly we've been working on a couple of development projects together. So um yeah, um it's it's part of a team. Um I tend to be the tenant representative uh on on these on these uh uh projects. So um yeah, we we come across you you quite a few times. Yeah. And I think you were introduced to us via D was it Dealy Freed? It was, yeah, Max Freed. Max and his team, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So we we've successfully opened that that nursery and it's but it's been running very nicely. Yeah, that's good. How long have you been at Happy Days? Just over 10 years now. Yeah, so I had a few years at well, eight years at Tesco prior to that. So a very different environment, but um very rewarding in in the sense that you've got a you can see the results um in terms of the children and how they they respond to the education we're giving them. Nice. And what is it that what is what's your role? What does it entail? My my my role title is um development director, um, but tend to deal with most things relating to property. Um now that's so I we're looking at we've been growing now for over 10 years. Um so that's my responsibility in terms of the growth of certainly we term organic inheritance, so new builds and and full fit outs. And then I also support the acquisitions as well as all the landlord intended interactions and lead sustainability lead within the within the business. Um and uh yeah, so so quite a varied, varied role. And properties, how many properties do do you have? We've now got 30, well 37. We've got 36 nurseries, but one of those has got two separate properties. So uh yeah, so it we keeps me on my toes. And your biggest your biggest stress, what is it that keeps you up at night? It's making sure the buildings are safe, I think. So safety is the first thing? The safety's got to be a priority within our within our sector. I mean, I think the safeguarding and safety of the building trumps everything within within a nursery. You know, we've we are looking after the most precious um sort of item that most people um have. So, you know, it it is it's a real responsibility. So, you know, we we've got a huge amount of compliance that we we we get through within the business, um, and that ranges from offstead to health and safety um to a whole range of um safety measures. Uh and and and and what what I've come across since working coming across from a corporate environment to a nursery environment is actually doing it not to tick a box, but you genuinely want to make sure that you you've got a self- you can go to sleep at night.

Darren Evans:

So you have noticed a difference then from how you're talking about sustainability here, or you're talking about with reference to safety, that there's been a shift from a large corporate into a more medium-sized uh organization? Personal responsibility, right?

Kevin Higgs:

You know, I think I think we've got a corporate responsibility, we've got a responsibility as directors of the business, but actually personally, that is that is absolutely where we're coming from, and I think that definitely runs straight through the sustainability uh agenda that we have. You know, it's not about ticking the ESG box, it's about actually making a difference because we've got a really unique, unique position. What is it that what is it that you love about your role? It's it it it's seeing the seeing the growth of the business whilst seeing the the the actually going into see the into the nurseries and seeing the staff and the children interacting um and seeing the engagement within the the buildings that I've been involved in. Yeah or I'm responsible for.

Darren Evans:

Yeah, yeah. And when it comes to designing the buildings and when you're working through um how to actually pull the the the layout of the building and deciding what's important and what's not important, what what is what what process do you go through? How how do you get to a point where you are comfortable with everything, thinking and believing and knowing that that is going to deliver the the experience that you want for your for your clients or for the children?

Kevin Higgs:

I think first of all it's location. I mean it it starts very much based on where it is. You know, can people get there through all modes of transport? So you know we always look at whether we can get there through public transport, you know, and pedestrian, pedestrian routes and and cycle routes. Now with children, that not all of that is is is offered is always used, but it's really important from our perspective for staff to make sure we can get people in and out of the building, not rely on the car. So that's a that's a first point in terms of where we're looking. Um but in terms of the design of the building, we've got very specific ideas um around how we want to operate that nursery. Um both from in terms of the the rooms where the children are are based, but also in terms of the interaction of the various other rooms, so where the manager sits, are they close enough to the all the rooms, can can can they react? Um how do we um service those rooms, you know, how do we heat them, how do we cool them? Um but I think it is some really basic le on a really basic level, um, and what I've learned since if you like being in the in a nursery business is I think we as property professionals tend to look at a building in terms of on a plan and spec. Whereas you watch a nursery a nursery operator, uh somebody who's in there every day with the children, they really work with their hands. So is this a sharp corner? Is it uh are there splinters out of this on this fence? So it really is a very different level of consideration. And and I think we always say to our maintenance team when they uh when they start, the priorities for you and me may be very different than those from the nursery. So, you know, if there's a problem with a a latch on a gate or a or a lock, that is a significant issue. Um the heating is not work is is over is not it's working, uh not working, sorry, in the winter, or the cooling is not working in the summer, it's a significant impact on the children. And you know, it it can get to the point we can't operate. So, you know, it's really is that it's that that direct interaction and responsibility. Um, you know, we will not um we you know we we've we've got to make sure that that experience is safe and enjoyable for the children and the staff so that the education can can carry on. Because it's not you know, we're not we're not babysitting, you know, we're educating. So that that environment is really important.

Darren Evans:

It's an interesting point that you're making there that you're not a babysitter, you're an educator. And I'm thinking that in this education piece, you're gonna have times where the children are going to need to be outside, doors are gonna need to be open because there's other good children that are going to need to be inside, and you need that person, that adult to be able to go from the inside to the outside quite freely, and then when that comes to the practicalities of heating or cooling that space when you've got the outdoor temperature being different to the desired indoor temperature, how do you go about deciding how to do that when it comes to things like sustainability and and so on?

Kevin Higgs:

It's a huge um uh and ongoing uh uh consideration. Um, you know, we we do like or and certainly from a for uh from an operational and educational point of view, we do like free flow. So so children can go in and out and they can explore and they can wander out into the garden and play there or come back in, obviously supervised. But from a from a from a maintenance property sustainability perspective, that is a uh is a real difficulty. Um so you know obviously we look look to ask the doors if if if not going outside, let's shut the door. Um but you're relying on on the team to do that. Um we support that, we have supported it in the past just to mitigate the the heat loss um via um uh kind of refrigerant curtains, uh refrigerator curtains. So basically uh a barrier that is not uh sufficient to stop a child or a member of staff getting getting through, but really helps to mitigate the loss of heat or cooling. Um and they're now moving into uh looking to trial later this year a BMS system where we where we can actually go a little bit slightly more technical around it all and and and shut off heating and cooling when the door opens. Um so that we can just do something to to to reduce that impact. Because then and and that that that is genuinely for uh you know the heating bills can be high. You know, we've we've moved away from gas, which was a conscious decision, mainly because we were we were having to put so much cooling into most of these nurseries that we that you know that we were there's we there's no point in having a having a gas heating system and then a full cooling in each each each room. Let's get a heating cooling system. So so we've we've gone down that route, but obviously that is pretty sensitive to the windows, and that's an educational piece as well at the moment. Um so so as in training the team how to use that system? Yes, um shut the door, basically, if you can. Um and but also don't don't if it don't don't put the air conditioning up to hundred, you know, to maximum because it won't get any cooler or hotter any quicker. Um uh and all you're doing is is heating the outside. So there is again, we're looking at potentially uh greater control of the the the individual room systems so that we can manage that a little bit better.

Darren Evans:

I've noticed over the years that property is developed in order for it to meet financial goals more than it's developed in order to meet comfort or outcomes for the people that are using the property. So the reason I kind of give that as an example in the in the in the nursery is because you have education, which is your primary reason for having the place open. You're not it's not a a child care center, it's not a it's not a holding pen that you're that you're creating, right? So they so in order for the young people to um be educated and to develop and to learn, they do need to make choices and have a certain amount of freedom to make choices. Do I go inside, do I go outside? Or maybe these choices are made from an adult that you're going outside to get something to bring it back in to do something inside, and so that facility is needed, but that goes against the the way of running a tight, efficient building, yeah, because you want to keep that envelope closed and keep it closed for as long as possible.

Kevin Higgs:

Absolutely, you know, as as a property professional, you understand that you don't open the door on air conditioning. Um however, as I said earlier on.

Darren Evans:

It is not for making money, it's really for the children to be educated. That's the whole reason for that property.

Kevin Higgs:

Yeah, absolutely. You know, we're we're a commercial business, so no, let's not let you know, so education is our business, um, which is perhaps I shouldn't be perhaps I shouldn't say, um, but you know, it is. Uh, but as part of that, you've got to be able to provide a quality uh education, a quality it's care and education. So you you want to make sure that the that the children have the opportunity to to to to use their own um mind and their own um natural inquisitiveness to actually do what they they want to do, and that's that's our part of our educational policy. Doesn't always go go go with the property sign, but and as I said earlier on, you know, it's childcare and say and and safeguarding those are two premier um items that uh that that we that that that we we must achieve. And it may make us weep every so often when we you know when when we realise the door's been opened, but we've we're we're looking at various ways of mitigating it, and I think it's going to be a consistent um uh conundrum, I won't say battle, challenge, challenge.

Darren Evans:

Challenge. So as as the all of the years that you've spent within uh property, with maintenance, with developing, what would you say that the contractors that you've worked with over the years um in the main struggle to really understand or really appreciate that you think actually, do you know, if anyone's listening that's in this area, if you could just appreciate and understand this, then for clients like me, it would just enable some really good things to happen.

Kevin Higgs:

I the the the probably the the single point is is uh height of children and they're they're they're they're their the the the the point at which they're looking at things and bumping into things. So for instance, um you know uh a low window, uh a windowsill at a round head height um is is is is awful because actually it's a point if there's a pointed corner on the end of a window sill next let maybe next to a door, that that is that's that's got clashes all over it. So you so you you you're constantly coming across, you know, particularly during snagging, can we can we sort um sort of corner that off or or can we put a um some kind of um uh protection on that? So I think that there's that there's there's that side. Um what else would be uh of frustration? I th I think I think it's it is design. It is it's it's it's silly bits of design, I think is is probably where we we we get the most frustration. And it's around that type of thing when a string we had a string course on uh outside one of our nurseries. Um and a string course. So basically uh uh so so uh uh one of the outside walls in the in into the garden. Yeah, that one of the features that was it was insisted upon was flat wall, course a little bit further uh course of bricks jutting out and then back. So so it was a literally a sort of feature brick. And of course, at what level was that? Head height it was at toddler's head height. Um you know, we we couldn't we couldn't get that out of the design. So now we've had to design, you know, uh basically create a blackboard type of wall, that was the I you know, across the front of it, to avoid to avoid uh a safeguarding issue. And it's uh at levels, I think that's the other one, you know, difference in levels, and we're very particular around transitions between different floor flooring, um, because just don't don't notice, don't notice, you know, a transition strip straight over. So it's all these those type of bits and pieces. From a sustainability point of view, I I think it's um we have we have had an interesting very interesting conversations um around sort of pre-am requirements in the past. A classic was um uh there was an insistence on having a uh a bench in in the garden, had to be in the garden, couldn't be out the front for the staff to be able to sit and use. And we had a considerable discussion around this. Um because actually the last place um the member of staff for their well-being um would sit would be in the children's garden. You know, it's just not you know, we wanted to have it out of the front, and there was a there was a so so there there's very you know, so it is that sort of on the ground operators eye view of what we see as a just a problem, whereas, you know, from a Briam perspective, um, we need one, we need a bench and we want to put it in the garden, and we you know, and as you have a garden, that's where it goes, because that's where the staff will want to sit in on a nice day, whereas that's exactly where they won't want to sit on a nice day. So, you know, it's just an example, but it's it gives a bit of a view. Sometimes you can uh get frustrated with that type of thing, but you know, it's it it is what it is. We can we've dealt with it.

Darren Evans:

That's interesting. So the the bench needed to be in the garden. Is uh was it for the staff to have a break?

Kevin Higgs:

Is that absolutely no staff welfare is is important to every every business, I hope. Um so we you know we have a staff room and and we allow them that but obviously if we had the opportunity to put in that bench, it would probably be out the front, you know, because actually that's the quietest place for them to go. Because what are you breaking having a break from? You know? Um it's a hard job, and you know, they they do decent, you know, eight, ten hour shifts. So to to to to to have that your your half an hour, you know, outside, it'll be well away. So so I I think it's it's you know, I think it's important from our perspective around that sort of thing. So it's just an example, but it's just how we see things compared to how the legislation or the or the authorities may have wanted to see.

Darren Evans:

So um and what things have you found that's worked really well with other the contractors that you've worked with, with architects, what what types of things do you value when working with with teams?

Kevin Higgs:

I I I think the the the best the best teams we've worked with um have addressed the um you know the requirements of the of of of the build and and and planning and sustainability with with listen to what we've said. You know, so so for instance, um you know we'll have we've we we've bee bricks and and um uh insect insect houses and all and so on. But actually, rather than putting them on the long side, the other side of the building where the children can't see, we'll have them on our side, uh uh on the on the children's side. So because it's absolutely part of an education, you know, that that that's the type of thing we'll do. So we'll we'll we'll we'll we'll we'll work with them from there. But I think it's really just understanding how we lay out the garden, you know, using some of the um you know uh planting, you know, so plant us put in garden to areas we can we can plant vegetables because as part of our curriculum that is very much understanding where food comes from, it's part of our commitment through the eco schools and through our own uh our own efforts to to for the children. So, you know, we we i i i i it it's saying okay, this doesn't necessarily work um um if you like at nor as as normal, but we're gonna change this around and we're gonna have um sort of different design features. So from that perspective, I think you know, we have we have worked at how we control buildings, you know, and you know, for instance, last last person out switch um is is really quite important in our you know, where you can see the difference in those that have and those that haven't got them. Um and it's always a bit of a do we need a do you need those? We've got PIRs, we've got this and that and the other. And well, no, because we do do not want lights on all night, um, because it does make a difference. People, whatever you do, lights will be off. So we are quite particular in terms of some of those type of features, you know, making sure that we've we've got a way of controlling, and it sounds a very controlling attitude, but I think we you know we we we give the staff every every credit of but equally and it's it's there's always gonna be some some some wastage there. Yes.

Darren Evans:

So talk me through how that that works. Is it a a routine that someone needs to go through to make sure that everything is switched off, or is it push one switch and everything shuts down?

Kevin Higgs:

So so basically at the end of the night, it so it's outside of the the the the front, just just in in the entrance lobby, walk out through there and then turn turn the got a key, turn the last last personnel switch off. So that but so basically everything that's not necessary is is not working overnight.

Darren Evans:

It automatically by turning that key shuts everything up.

Kevin Higgs:

Absolutely. So from our perspective, clearly that's uh you know, from an energy perspective, that's really really good new. But it's also how is it's a very clear and obvious routine that can be managed and addressed quite easily.

Darren Evans:

And it's a signal as well, isn't it? You know, for that last person that's out to say, I'm I am done, I have fulfilled every responsibility given to me of this day, and and I'm I'm checking out.

Kevin Higgs:

Yeah, yeah. And uh and and again, that's important. So um, yeah, yeah, and and it's important to us because we're open 12, 13 hours a day. Um maybe not that long, but with with cleaning as well, around that sort of time. But that leaves virtually half the day where, you know, rogue rogue equipment, you know, that that can be switched off is is. Um it's not everything, you know, and and so that's from a design point of view, that's quite important um with our fit-out contractors. That's that's been really it's it's really noticeable. Well, we haven't got it, we're looking to put it in. It's a much harder to put to retrofit that type of thing than than um than starting from scratch, than doing doing originally.

Darren Evans:

What are your plans now moving forward in terms of build or or refurb schedule? It sounds like happy days of acquired a few other businesses as well. So you've kind of you've got quite a mix there of property, haven't you? Is there anything that you're able to talk of that with reference to plans moving forward?

Kevin Higgs:

Yeah, we we're we are heading towards the practical completion of a of a new new nursery, so from scratch. Um where is that? That's in um Borley Park, which is just north of Southampton, hedge end. So that that is due for completion at the end of November. So that that is exciting and open in and that will open in January. So again, we'll we'll um we'll be fitted with setting that up between between November, end of November and the new year, ready for ready for children in in January, if all goes well. I think it has been going well so far, so we can't uh you know, but you never assume. Um so so from that perspective, we we we the we we're now the the the the fit out element of that is going on at the moment. So, you know, we're working um well with a developer and yeah, and I and I think going back to the contractor um occupy relationship, you know, there's an awful we've worked with them before and there's an awful lot of questioning. So is does this work? You know, we're gonna we're gonna have this retaining wall of the back, which is a very functional um item. How are we gonna finish it? Is it gonna be a rough brick? I don't know, we don't want rough bricks because children come up fall into those. Is it going to be something that, you know, so it's a so we various items along the line we we've dealt with. We've got a forest school area that we've agreed, you know, there was there was a landscaping strip that that was a level of landscaping that was required, and we've agreed with combination of the the the the developer and the local authority uh to use that as a as a as a as a a forest school. So an area it's a less formal play, um, in where there's there's the trees, trees growing, you know, and then so that's slightly less formal uh less of a formula than than the the the the more um uh surfaced and um set play areas. Um so again, you know, that's that's developed during the design process and during the planning process actually. So you know that those is it's getting involved. It's gonna I think that that's that's the key. It's getting involved with the process, not walking away and saying, okay, we signed contracts on this, we'll come back at a PC and everything will be fine. Because there's always a question around education, uh how what works best, and the the best contractors and the best developers we work with will listen to what you're saying and nuance things so that we're actually achieving the same property performance, but we're actually used to doing it through a prism of a an educator.

Darren Evans:

What process do you go through and what would you say the kind of main criteria is for deciding who to work with? I'm just um thinking this now as you know, lots of organizations that are out there are within that small to medium enterprise bracket. And I know of developments that I've done personally, when you do the first one, it feels as though your process is as best as it can be, because you've never gone through the process before. And so I look around and say, right, who else has been through this process that I can get some advice from? And I'm not sure that there's that much around, really. So I'm not saying give away company secrets necessarily unless you're comfortable doing that, but I'm just wondering for those people that are listening, what advice can you give of things that you have found, really, really good methods and ways to ensure that the people that you're choosing are actually the people that you want to work with?

Kevin Higgs:

Well, beyond the the kind of research you do uh in terms of financial strength and uh and and past track record, I think it one of the key things is is looking at a business as of a similar size. So, you know, so so you've you know you you're you're dealing with you're dealing with um people that kind of understand the size of the business um as well as as well as the operation because you tend to get a greater connection there. Um, you know, we've worked with we have we work with we we have had um shell the shell developer the the contractor of a shell being some of the some of the some of the big guys and it's just you just don't get any interaction, you know. You're just not on the same page. So the best people we've worked with have been businesses of a similar size structure, um so that we can we we interact best. So that I think that's that that that that is really important. Um we can s we've seen the difference. Um I think it's addressing your point about everything's you know everything's new on a on a on a on a i it is, but every time there's a learning on every every project, and I think that's the that's you know, you can improve, you can learn when things don't go quite as well. Um and you know, so so I think this the consistency is important, you know. We've worked with a with fit out contractor, you know, pretty much throughout, um, that really understands the business, you know, and the and uh like a tenant side project team. Um really understand so you know architects project managers so that we can we we you know we we can uh see the problems coming before they before they hit both through the design as well as later on so yeah I I th I think it's it's it's it it it's it's finding finding a a a level uh but then also understanding who you're dealing with within that business you know are you gonna be dealing with um the the MD are you gonna be dealing with you know who who with within there so as early as possible you can start getting a rapport an understanding understanding where they're coming from and what their pressures are as well so that we can work together um to get the best the best result and and if you get on if you know somebody well enough and you spend the time you can have those conversations during it saying well I don't think that quite works um without too many um um changes so very in the variations in the contract so that's what so you mentioned that you worked for Tesco um and I'm just wondering the career path that you've taken to to get to this point at the moment how did you how did you get yeah right yeah well I I'm a charter surveyor so so I I'd I I worked um in the um various Southwest property consultancies in in and around Bristol um from 1988 um and left there 2004 um to go into a development company um we're sadly no longer no longer no longer going um but from there you know we w went to Tesco I and that's and that was less on the construction side there's so so you know this is about acquisition and planning and um design of of of buildings um and delivery of of of new stores. When that when the when the the the tide if you like of of development started slowing down for all the supermarkets and you know generally across the board in the 1314 um you know you looked around to what actually I'd like to be something look at something a bit more fulfilling. And I think probably most you know and my colleagues and the people that what on earth are you doing? You're going to work for a nursery operator. You know at the time we had I think 15, 16 settings and we've now got 36, 37 on the way um but the but you're busy you know and I and I think and and there's a there's a there's a purpose you know where purpose is to to grow and then deliver that that quality that education. So I I think it's it's it's it's been a real change in the last 10 years doing this. But it's actually pulling together all the experiences I've had in those various different different roles in the past bringing it forward to something that's actually producing a producing a difference. And you can see the difference.

Darren Evans:

Yeah I get that sense from you that what you're experiencing is is purpose in what you're doing you're seeing the the uh the outcome of your efforts in a different way than what you've done and what you've had in previous roles.

Kevin Higgs:

Yeah I mean you can be proud of any any any role can't you and when you when you're when you're in there you can be pleased with the number of stores you've opened and you can be pleased with you know the the the the the sale of a building or whatever it might be but I think you know you've you you maybe it's maybe it's age or maybe it's the fact that you get you you mature or change perspective over over over a period of time and and and I and I do like the fact that that we're moving together with a purpose for you know for really um you know something that's really important. Early years is is such an important area you know the development of children's minds happens uh sh uh uh in the those first years um and so going back to that babysitting it's not babysitting it is really helping them get on their way and getting them ready for school because school is is such a change um so you know that that is important to me um I I and I think the other thing that I you know I think is important from our perspective and I think you know is we're quite uniquely placed um how so well I I I think you know we've we've got particularly around sustainability you know from from a sustainability ESG point of view we are um you know we we we we we're responsible for buildings you know we're so but we're also educating children so so we've we we've got a curriculum that involves you know the sustainability you know we we we run in the eco schools uh project so there is a a drive from that side so everything we're doing it actually you can do everything um for staff and for energy saving for waste but actually at the same time you've got this educational uh element and by our actions you you you you can make a difference to people's perspectives without brainwashing and this is you know but it's but if if members of staff and and the teams and the rooms are are recycling you know that is that's a it's a strong message to get across um so you know we we are you know we we f from an ESG point of view you know we we are in the community you know we do interact with with um uh the community for instance intergenerational play you know we will we'll we'll go and uh interact with a local care care home um and and the children and and and the the residents of the care home are are in there doing various um uh activities that apps that both get huge benefit out of um so you know we we you know we're we we we are able to actually bring some of some of that those softer softer skills to our sustainability um but we do have to have the rigor to make sure that we're doing everything else well kevin I know that our team actually loves working with with you with Happy Days Nurseries they they absolutely uh do that and I'm I'm grateful for your perspective for coming on and and and talking about your role your passion um as a father of four children I've all my children are kind of grown up now but you know I I know how important those early years are and just you know just commend your attitude and your perspective when it comes to creating these spaces where where young people can learn and and develop in those early years so so thank you.

Darren Evans:

Thank you thanks for watching to the end I think that you will like this but before you do that just make sure that you've commented and liked below and also that you subscribed